ETH amount for proof

General Chat
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Hi everyone!

Since one of the aspirations is to extend UBI universally, and one of the proofs needed in PoH is to deposit 0.157 ETH (it seems an amount quite high nowadays) is there any idea to mitigate a possible price increase on ETH quotation?

:slight_smile:

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I think that the crowdfunding functionality is aimed towards this, but it hasn’t been explored further yet…
Imagine if I could donate or delegate part of my accrued UBIs towards an organization (could be the DAO) that funded those truly in need.

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For sure crowfunding is one of the answers, but still quite weak in an scenario where ETH valuation rises exponentially.

I believe that it would be better to have a USD value fixed, rather than a ETH quotation. In addition, I would add some sort of flotation bands to avoid changing so fast this fee.

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in my opinion the ideal scenario would be a fixed amount of UBI … but I don’t know if that works for the kleros integration…

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I think too that it is a high entrance barrier if you would to be massive

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My understanding is we can still be vouched without 100% of the deposit. (Someone please correct me if I’m wrong). Is there any reason one could not deposit a portion of the deposit - whatever they can afford - wait for the vouch and then deposit the remaining amount in order to get registered?

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I’d totally give a percentage of the UBI’s I’m farming to help those who can’t make the deposit.

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An idea i am playing with:

  • run a bot that monitors for accounts that get marked as ‘removed’ but have previously been registered.

  • call the reportRemoval function on the ubi contract with the removed account address

  • the function will credit the remover with the accrued ubi of the removed account

  • send this to a fundraising “VouchDao” which LPs the ubi and uses profits to support the crowdfunded applications.

I’ve tested the first bit successful claiming 119 ubi (~$80) from a removed account that was still accruing $ubi. I’ll write up a little bot to monitor for it.

Cons:

  1. slow as it relies on fake accounts that managed to be trusted and then removed. This isn’t a common occurrence at the moment (maybe in a future where we have 1000s of registrations a day more would slip through?)
  2. can be frontrun by someone else if it becomes profitable enough.
  3. gas costs only make it worth it sometimes.
  4. volume on pools wont be huge so will be a slow income stream.

Pros:

  1. reclaims the ubi from non-humans to support real humans.
  2. we can use flashbots if/when frontrunning is an issue.
  3. could try bundle multiple calls in one go? or flashbots to sidestep gas costs
  4. takes otherwise lost $ubi and provides liquidity to the pools (would need dao members to support the eth/dai side of the pools).
  5. as more people use and trade ubi the fees on the pools become more meaningful and it recycles back into signing more people who then use the pools, feedback loop :slight_smile:
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Seems like something that could be aided by wrapping the contracts in Optimism pretty soon as well.

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Part of this cost is a parameter which can be fixed by the DAO. The other part is there to pay for juror fees in case of dispute. It could be possible to also lower the amount of jurors to lower the deposit.

We could also have a POH version on optimism (when ready) which would solve the gas issues.

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Is posible for the DAO to have a Trust of ETH to support the crowdfunding?
I think that every human that is receiving $ubi could send some coins to this pool and then we can use it to found the submitions.
Maybe, even voting for Humans to manage and be responsable of this trust, in order to fund only profiles that can’t be challenged. I’m thinking about something like the UBI Foundation.

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To sort of expand on this point, note that the deposit essentially covers two functions

  1. to cover the costs of paying Kleros jurors in the first round of an eventual dispute over whether the profile should be accepted and

  2. to provide for a reward to incentivize people to look for potentially inacceptable submissions that would be worth challenging.

Currently, in the first round of Kleros disputes for proof of humanity cases, three jurors are drawn to rule on the case. One way to decrease the ETH deposit required would be to start with initial panels of only a single juror judging these cases. Note that, recalling that Kleros is a Schelling point based system and jurors are incentivized for whether they are coherent with the final juror vote, even starting with only one juror there is still an incentive for that single juror to vote seriously because there is a potential for appeal. So if people think the juror voted incorrectly, there is likely to be an appeal and the first round juror would be rewarded or penalized based on what the appeal jurors decide. So far Kleros has used first round panels of only a single juror for Linguo (https://linguo.kleros.io/).

I would be curious to hear what people think about the idea of starting with one juror panels here. The negatives are that some borderline cases might not be appealed, so there is an added level of variability in terms of whether the first round juror represents how a larger panel would have voted, and that in (the minority of) cases where there is an appeal and you wind up back with a three juror panel anyway, there is an additional delay and some extra gas to have gone through the one juror round.

To illustrate the effect that such a change would have on the deposit size: with current parameters of a .1 ETH challenger reward, a .019 ETH per juror average arbitration fee, and starting with three jurors, we get the current deposit of .1+3*.019=.157 ETH. If one starts with a single juror, that becomes .1+1*.019=.119 ETH. (Furthermore, the challengers don’t have to lock up as much money, so potentially their reward could be reduced somewhat too all else being equal, though the gas they have to pay limits how much that could be reduced.) With the parameters that have been proposed here: KIP-40 Parameter Updates (March 2021) - Votes - Kleros Forum (which adjust for ever rising gas prices), starting with a three juror panel gives .14+3*.028=.224 ETH versus starting with a one juror panel is .168 ETH.

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This would be the best idea, as it would bring the demand for UBI.

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